Defying the Gender Binary
An interview with nonbinary students at the University of Wisconsin-Madison
By Sarah Kirsch, Culture Staff Writer
Photographed by Sophia Krupka, Staff Photographer
Directed by Hannah Bruder, Assistant Creative Director
Modeled by Macy Saunders, Caitlin Fitzgerald and Abdalla
The norms of self-identity are constantly being blurred. Gender is a social construct that is always changing and varies from place to place (Gender and Health, n.d.). The gender binary is the belief that there are only two genders and that the sex and gender assigned at birth will align with traditional social constructs of masculine and feminine identity, expression and sexuality (Gender Binary Definition, n.d.). Blurring the gender binary allows more personalization and the opportunity to explore identity. UW-Madison has a growing number of nonbinary students on campus, and there’s no one better to talk about this topic than them.
I had the privilege of interviewing four UW-Madison nonbinary students for this piece. Each was individually asked the same questions about their experience and journey with their identity. For their privacy and comfort, three of the four identities will remain anonymous; the other would like their name included. They will be referred to as follows:
Person A (they/them)
Macy Saunders (they/them)
Person C (they/them)
Person D (they/she)
When did you first hear about the term nonbinary, and where did you hear it from? (E.g. in person, internet, another nonbinary person, etc)
Person A: I’m not sure exactly when I first heard the term nonbinary, but I learned about the use of they/them pronouns during my first year of undergrad. Before coming out, I was attracted to they/them pronouns themselves because of how they seemed to express a self-contained criticality in relation to the normative pronouns of he/him or she/her. I think instead of someone telling me directly, I was probably made aware of they/them pronouns during introductions in classes on the first day.
Macy Saunders: I hadn’t truly learned what nonbinary meant and that it pertained to myself until my sophomore year of college. The way I found out about the term was by looking up the definitions of gender identities and sexual orientations when my curiosity was piqued by Instagram posts on National Coming Out Day.
Person C: The internet! I saw social media posts that explained different ways people could identify and what it meant to identify as such.
Person D: I actually first learned about the term nonbinary in my first Gender and Women’s Studies course at UW! I was blessed to have a professor who held a large value in teaching about the variety of identities that exist within the realms of gender and sexuality!
Tell me about your personal journey and discovery with your gender identity. When did you start identifying as nonbinary or under the nonbinary umbrella? (Referring to “nonbinary” as both an umbrella term and as a gender)
Person A: I think it took place over the course of a couple of years. I spent 2015-2016 living in England, during which time I made friends with a lot of fellow queer students there. They recognized me in a way that felt new and reassuring–even though I still identified as cis and straight, they facilitated my introduction to styles and modes of expression that were more expansive than what I had been taught growing up. More personally, I’m of mixed Mexican and Filipino descent, and I became aware during this year of how cisnormative gender categories (male and female) were themselves inextricable from a whiteness that created and maintained those same categories and their related identities in the first place. In other words, I was often bullied while growing up for being smaller and “weaker” than my white peers, genetic traits themselves inextricable from being Mexican and Filipino. In response, I overcorrected, becoming more aggressive, outspoken and irritable than those same white peers, assuming that by adopting and performing these toxic traits, I’d finally be respected as a man. Coming out as nonbinary was not only a way to explore modes of expression and identity that would help me feel more comfortable in my own body; it was also a way to critically engage my past and to distance myself from the traits I had adopted as a result of the difficulty of being brown and never manly enough (or never white enough).
Macy Saunders: Since I was about six years old, I have struggled with how I want to express myself versus how people perceive me or wish me to act. My gender journey started off as me wanting to shop in the boys’ section, stealing my brothers’ clothes and wishing to play football and baseball. Of course, it did not take me long to realize that I was not welcome to do those things as I pleased. After begging, I was finally allowed to cut my hair short in second grade. Once I reached middle school and had to deal with puberty changing my body in ways I did not feel comfortable with, body dysmorphia and other mental issues started to develop. I began to hate the way I looked in shirts because my chest wasn’t flat, and I did not like having to wear shorter shorts than the boys did. I would get worried in high school because I felt that I might be transgender, and I did not think I would be accepted in the slightest. Once I reached college, I began to cut my hair as I pleased and wear what I wanted (no matter how masculine). It was not until I was 19 that I felt that I could identify as anything other than a girl. I began using they/them pronouns, and I purchased my first binder. The binder was life-changing for me and helped a lot with my body dysmorphia. Soon after, I contemplated physically transitioning female to male but did not end up going through with it. I still think about transitioning at times, which is why I identify as not just being nonbinary but also trans masc.
Person C: I always felt really uncomfortable with myself until about two years ago. I didn’t understand why. As a kid, I can recall thinking that I was born the wrong sex. Up until I was 19, I was dressing in a way that didn’t make me feel good, just how I thought I was expected to dress. I let other people/society dictate how I presented myself. Eventually, I started dressing myself in a way that made me more comfortable and experimented with expressing myself differently physically. I kept exposing myself to more diverse media and realized that I related to the people I was seeing on my screen. I also started to hang out with people that were more diverse and open-minded. Hearing and reading about other people’s experiences with gender helped me come to the conclusion that was why I felt so uncomfortable with myself. I didn’t know that there were other options for me. I didn’t know other people felt the way I had been feeling. It was difficult to come to terms with the fact that I spent 19 years of my life being uncomfortable with myself. It was hard to accept that I had been trying to be something I wasn’t and that I hadn’t been honest with myself for my entire life. When I changed my pronouns and my physical appearance, it was really freeing. I felt the most comfortable I’d ever felt.
Person D: I only recently began identifying with the term nonbinary. I never truly categorized myself as nonbinary, even through the process of changing my pronouns, due to the necessary deconstruction of internalized oppressive structures I had built as the result of societal expectations. Throughout this time, I explored terms such as nonbinary, agender, etc.; however, I truly enjoyed the term nonbinary as it inherently rejected the binary and the oppressive nature associated with binary culture! I, at first, utilized nonbinary as an umbrella term for my gender expression as I didn’t place importance in labeling my identity but rather expressing myself in a way that felt most like myself! Now, I have come to the conclusion that the term describes my identity well and would like to explore the lack of limitation this term encapsulates.
How “out” are you (E.g. everyone, certain family or friends, etc)? If not, how out do you plan to be in the future? Do you feel something is keeping you from being open in the public with your identity?
Person A: I’m out to everyone besides my parents. When I first started using they/them pronouns, I came out through a Facebook post (which feels dated to say now since I no longer use Facebook and neither do any of my friends). I remember my dad and I had a brief conversation about it, where I basically said everything I wrote in response to the previous question–brownness, whiteness, never being able to really be seen as a man because never being white–and my dad responded with remarkable understanding and acknowledgment (it was surprising because he’s always been a very conservative Pentecostal Christian). But], probably because he’s pretty old (born in 1944, yikes), he promptly forgot that conversation and I haven’t felt the need to bring it up again and remind him. Ultimately, I don’t feel as though my parents knowing will determine whether or not I finally feel recognized as who I am; it’s important, for me, to remain aware of the constraints of their own experiences and understandings of the world and to think really carefully about whether or not this is something that feels like it’s worth disrupting and challenging that view. They see me and know me in ways that others don’t as a result of having raised me, and yet I don’t go out of my way to try and tell friends nowadays all the things my parents know that they don’t. Everyone else knows though, and I don’t spend a lot of time worrying about what might happen if my parents hear in other ways that I’m nonbinary (I don’t even know if they’d understand what that information means).
Macy Saunders: My friends all know I am nonbinary, and most people that run into me or I’m acquainted with have a pretty good idea of my gender identity. Some of my family knows, but it is kept secret from other people in my family due to their beliefs. I normally do not make a big show out of my gender identity; I only bring it up if I am asked about it. When it comes to telling people that I do not think will support me, I am not sure how to go about that.
Person C: I am out to all of my friends and to my close family. I have a great work environment that makes me feel comfortable using my pronouns at my job. I list they/them pronouns on my socials as well. If someone is roughly my age or younger, I might ask their pronouns first, because often they’ll ask them in return. That way, they know what I prefer, and I don’t have to worry about correcting them or feeling bad when they use something different later.
I attend a group workout class at my gym, but most of the other attendees are much older than me, so I have only told one person there. I don’t really feel like explaining myself to them because I feel like they might not take me seriously. It’s a bit exhausting to explain your gender expression to people who might not understand or care to hear. I am not out to extended family for this reason as well.
I can generally get a pretty good idea of if someone would be accepting of my pronouns by talking to them for a bit. I usually don’t lead with the subject in conversations though, I’d rather it came up naturally. I don’t often correct people either, it’s something I’m not super comfortable with yet.
Person D: I am out to all of my close friends here at UW as well as on social media through the display of my pronouns and content I post! I have not discussed this with my parents or my youngest sister as they are not extremely open to the concept. I have spoken to them in regard to my sexual identity and unfortunately have not felt entirely supported. Therefore, I am unsure if I will be telling them at all throughout my life. At the current moment, I am entirely content with the support of my friends. I do not find an immediate need to tell my parents and am okay with simply expressing myself the way in which I feel best!
What do you think is the most common misconception about nonbinary people?
Person A: I think that we too often expect nonbinary and genderfluid homies to outwardly perform those identities. Sometimes I play with my appearance and wear skirts and dresses, and other days I pass for a cis man (which can also be a kind of privilege that I want to remain aware of here). But the expectation that I visibly perform this identity actually works counterintuitively to the reason I chose to be nonbinary in the first place–it gives me greater flexibility and control over the spectrum of things that I am, sometimes different today than tomorrow and sometimes the same for weeks on end. Nonbinariness, for me, is about the refusal to shape myself according to what others expect, knowing that kind of contortion can be (and has been) devastating for me as a mixed brown kid. Sometimes (though certainly not always), the greatest refusal and most radical gesture is the one that conspires just under the surface of what is visible, the one that builds networks with other people without announcing its presence.
Macy Saunders: I feel like lots of people find nonbinary people to be weird or think that they want attention. Also, there is no one way to present as nonbinary. You can dress as femme or masc as you want and it does not make you more or less nonbinary. People who present as nonbinary are not trying to make life more difficult for other people, they’re trying to make life possible for themselves.
Person C: Nonbinary doesn’t mean you physically present any certain way. Nonbinary can look so different on different people! Someone that dresses very femininely can use she/they, he/him, he/they, etc. and still identify as nonbinary! Preferred pronouns don’t mean that one person is any less nonbinary than someone else. It’s very much a spectrum, and there is no one way of being nonbinary.
Person D: I believe the most common misconception about nonbinary people is the idea that one needs to identify intensely with the opposite gender from birth in order to “count” as “fully” nonbinary. I struggled with this immensely as a more feminine-identifying, nonbinary individual. I felt as if my experience wasn’t validated by society’s view of what nonbinary meant. To be nonbinary simply means to exist outside the binary of male or female. Similar to sexuality, gender is a large spectrum in which one can lie in the center or to either side or simply not within it at all! Gender is complex and limitless; that’s the fun of it! Express yourself in a way that feels most comfy for you!
What pronouns do you use? Has anyone ever used the wrong pronouns, and if so, how did that make you feel? How do you generally respond?
Person A: I use they/them pronouns. People use the wrong pronouns, and it’s fine. I think it’s worse when someone makes a big deal out of their mistake. If you use the wrong pronouns, correct yourself and then continue what you were saying. Whether or not I correct someone depends on the context and the space. Again, I ask myself if it’s worth disrupting the space to make a point. Sometimes, it’s definitely worth it, sometimes you gotta shake people up. Other times I just continue on with my day. I know what I am and it can feel good to keep things for myself.
Macy Saunders: I use they/them pronouns, and there are people that use she/her pronouns for me always every day by accident. Whenever someone uses she/her pronouns or calls me a girl or something of the sort, part of me shuts down for a few seconds. I never get upset with the person, but it does make it more difficult for me to continue the conversation in a happy, positive manner.
Person C: They/them is normally what I tell people, but I occasionally get he/him and that’s fine too. I have been misgendered quite a bit, and how I respond/feel about it usually depends on the situation. If the person doesn’t know what pronouns I prefer, I won’t be upset with them. I might correct them if I feel comfortable enough. If someone purposely misgenders me, it definitely doesn’t feel great and I will usually assume that the person doesn’t respect me or take me seriously. I am more likely to correct someone that is purposely misgendering me.
Person D: I use they/she pronouns! I do not advertise my pronouns frequently; therefore, I am often misgendered. This doesn’t necessarily bother me if I know the individual is not purposefully attempting to harm me through that action; however, I will gently correct them if I find it appropriate. However, if an individual is not respecting my identity throughout and interaction, I will simply exit the situation in order to avoid any harm.
Why are pronouns, particularly respecting them, important?
Person A: Choosing to respect a person’s pronouns and to address them the way they choose to be addressed is a statement about the kind of person you want to be. Do you believe in solidarity, community and the profound need for other people to lend your life meaning? Then act accordingly. On the other hand, if you think the most important thing about life is to be alone, that’s your choice, but it’s mighty sad.
Macy Saunders: The pronouns you use to refer to a person can majorly affect the way they feel about themselves. Knowing that people perceive you in a way that does not coordinate with how you feel about yourself is the opposite of relieving and self-validating.
Person C: Personally, I don’t get super dysphoric when I am misgendered, but I know people that do. I think most people wouldn’t purposely want to make anyone in their presence feel needlessly uncomfortable or upset, so it’s just the most courteous thing to do! I would hope that most people would want to create a safe space for everyone/anyone that they’re interacting with, and asking about pronouns is a great way to do that (even if you’re confident that you know what pronouns someone uses, it never hurts to ask; you might be surprised!). Pronouns are a form of self-expression, so using the pronouns that someone prefers is just another way of respecting that person and their right to express themselves how they feel most comfortable!
Person D: Pronouns are a beautiful way we can provide others with both respect and empowerment! It’s incredibly empowering when individuals embrace both neutrality and specificity when thinking about gender identity! When someone addresses me utilizing the correct pronouns, I feel seen and heard based on how I genuinely identify, rather than society’s expectation of me.
What advice would you give to someone who is questioning their own identity?
Person A: I would say that if you feel at all confined in the way you were raised to think about yourself and your relationships with others, then the biggest damn gift you can give yourself (and others) is permission to try and be something else.
Macy Saunders: If you are questioning your identity, look up the definitions for all types of gender identities online. When you come across one that you relate to or makes you feel heard, you will have a better idea of how you want to be treated. It will be a scary process, but in the end, it will make you feel a million times better.
Person C: Exposing yourself to related media can definitely help. Talk to people! Ask them about their own gender identity! It’s great to hear other perspectives and experiences. But also know that nobody’s experience with gender identity is exactly the same. Also, your experience might not be linear. You might find that you feel one way at one point, and then six months later feel a completely different way. Know that’s okay and there’s no rush. Take things at your own pace. Don’t let anyone tell you how you feel. You know you best. Everything is up to you! Do what makes you comfortable.
Person D: I would encourage you to embrace how you wish to express yourself! Lean into those thoughts you may have been feeling over the past year or even day! Explore your comfort zone and burn those expectations you may feel that you need to live up to because you are so much more than the opinions of others! It can be terrifying to exit the little comfy zone we have built for ourselves; however, know that when you finally make the jump, there will be so many people to empower and love you for who you are.
As a UW-Madison student/community member, do you think UW-Madison effectively creates a diverse, inclusive environment? Why or why not? What could they do to improve?
Person A: I think that diversity is kind of a tough way to think about it. Diversity feels like ticking boxes, conceiving of identities and experiences as data points in the world’s saddest Excel spreadsheet. To meaningfully change our institution, we’d have to undo other things first (first and foremost, we’d have to dismantle the notion that a university should be a money-making institution–that’s very weird that we do that anyway). I’m less interested in pretending like diversity initiatives are helping than trying to make sure that money doesn’t determine what we can or cannot do, learn or be.
Macy Saunders: I think UW-Madison is not the most inclusive place in the world but way better than a lot of other places. Ways to improve would include proportioning gender-neutral bathrooms and locker rooms, as well as educating about gender-affirming health care, physical and mental.
Person C: It definitely depends on the people you’re around on a regular basis! There’s definitely a community within Madison that is diverse and inclusive, but unless you’re exposed to it or in it, you might not know it exists. In general, I feel like exposure to more diverse individuals/material/media could benefit the community as a whole. I think that educating everyone on subjects regarding diversity is the best start to building a more open-minded and inclusive community. People might not seek out that material on their own, so if it’s required or readily available, people might be more inclined to educate themselves.
Person D: I have been blessed to be a part of programs at UW-Madison that truly empower my experience within the LGBTQIA+ community. However, it is apparent that the university as a whole does not place much importance on the experiences of these students. In previous courses I have taken, as well as listening to specific experiences within the lives of my STEM friends, it is interesting to watch as the binary is rewarded in discussion and other experiences are disregarded. Many professors do not ask about pronouns before mistakenly referring to individuals in an incorrect manner. Specifically, within the previous two years, I have hoped for a more broad awareness of the variety of student experiences. At times, it feels isolating when my experience is completely overlooked within a lecture and other course discussions.
In what ways can the people around you, friends or community, support you better?
Person A: I think that I always just want my friends to understand. One of the hardest things about being a person of color, for instance, is that people make you feel crazy if you suggest that something is race-related or racially motivated. And when they realize they’ve made a mistake in making me feel crazy, they apologize like they know an apology is what’s expected of them. I almost never want an apology. I just want friends to look me in the eyes and say, “That makes sense. I totally hear you. Thanks for sharing that with me.”
Macy Saunders: Friends and family can learn to use your pronouns, change their language when speaking about or to you and be there to assure you not to doubt yourself. Having people that do not stare at you just a little too long when you’re wearing clothing that surprises them, decide to cut your hair or wear make-up, makes a world of a difference.
Person C: I think it would be great if more people asked me about my pronouns or made more of an effort to respect mine/other people’s pronouns. In my case, I feel like I very clearly present in a way that’s unusual, so I would love it if people took the time to ask me my pronouns or about myself more often.
If you are ever wondering about someone’s gender expression as a cisgender person, you should make sure you are asking appropriate questions! I have been asked the question “are you going through transition?” before, and the person asking meant no harm, but not everyone is comfortable answering that question! It’s best to do your research to know what questions are okay and what questions are less welcome. If that means looking it up or asking people, that’s great. It’s also okay to let someone know that they don’t have to answer questions that you’re asking if they don’t feel comfortable. Not everyone is ready to “out” themselves. Not everyone is entirely sure about it either. Different people may be in different stages of exploring self-expression and gender expression, so their answers might change later!
Additionally, if you are a cisgender person looking to be a better ally, it’s super helpful to try to expose older generations to this material as well. Having talked to quite a few people who consider themselves to be under the non-binary umbrella, most of us feel uncomfortable telling people older than us what we prefer. Many times, people older than us won’t take us seriously or we aren’t perceived as valid. If more cisgender people asked for older people’s pronouns or helped educate them, it would make things easier for us. If it comes from you, it could be taken more seriously than if it comes from us!
Person D: I deeply believe in the human’s capability to empathize and empower. I would ask these individuals, specifically my community, to respect and empathize with the experiences of others. I have been blessed to have a friend group that has either explored or deeply empathizes with the LGBTQIA+ community. Some of them identify as cisgender and heterosexual, so in reality, the LGBTQIA+ community has no relevance to their personal lives. However, they have personally taken on the task of learning about the experiences and identities of my other friends and me in order to love us in the most genuine form! I would simply ask for others to be open and driven to learn about the experiences of others that don’t necessarily hold relevance to one’s life but simply to love all humans in the greatest way possible. And who knows, maybe you will recognize new identities within yourself!
Sources:
Gender and Health. (n.d.). World Health Organization.
Gender Binary Definition. (n.d.). Dictionary.com.